Episode 1

Understanding the Spiritual Realm (Part 1)

We know of the story outlined in the Bible of the struggle between good and evil, and God’s partnering with humans towards ordering creation. But the Bible has characters we often ignore in our modern secular society - spiritual beings, the divine council, and the unseen realm referenced in Ephesians 6 and Daniel 9. This class explores how opening our eyes to the spiritual realm can add significance to our own spiritual struggles. Brian will share personally about his own journey of understanding as well as health battle and how increased spiritual awareness provides comfort and meaning.

00:00 Introduction to the Deeper Dive Podcast

00:25 Meet Brian Craig: Evangelist and Worship Leader

00:47 Brian's Journey with Brain Cancer

01:02 Understanding the Spiritual Realm: An Overview

01:15 Brian Craig's Personal Introduction

02:08 Exploring the Ancient Near Eastern Worldview

02:50 The Cultural Lens of the Bible

07:02 Reconciling Science and Religion

16:52 The Divine Council and Spiritual Beings

25:46 Heavenly Beings and Earthly Struggles

27:57 Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

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Click here for more Deeper Dive Episodes

OC Church of Christ

Transcript
Marcel:

Welcome to the deeper dive podcast brought to you by the OC Church of Christ.

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The Deeper Dive Podcast is about going

deeper into God's word, learning new

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insights and taking a fresh look at

the verses that impact our daily lives.

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Today we have the honor of

hearing from Brian Craig.

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Bryan is an evangelist, biblical

teacher, songwriter and worship leader.

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Brian has a master's degree in

ministry from Pepperdine University.

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Brian and his wife Dessa serve in the

full-time ministry with the South Bay

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ministry of the LA Church of Christ.

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They also have three children.

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At the end of 2022, Brian was diagnosed

with an aggressive form of brain cancer

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and has been sharing that journey

of faith with his local ministry,

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online community, and on his blog.

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You can find the link in the show notes.

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This episode is the first

of a two part series titled

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"Understanding The Spiritual Realm."

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So get your scuba gear and

let's dive deep into God's word.

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Here's Brian Craig.

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Brian: Hi, my name is Brian

Craig, or you might know me as J.

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Brian Craig.

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That's how my music is released,

because I can't remember why

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I had to do that years ago.

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I think there was already a BrianCraig.

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com or something.

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But anyway, I have been asked

to teach this class called

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Understanding the Spiritual Realm,

and I'm excited about sharing it.

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I'm really just sharing

the name of the class.

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It's kind of a misnomer.

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Understanding the Spiritual Realm

as if I, have any idea or anybody

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could really understand the spiritual

realm, but it's more in search of

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understanding the spiritual realm.

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And I just want to share about some

things I've been learning and that

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have I feel like blessed me and blessed

my walk with God from just rethinking

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certain things, the way I always thought

about certain things things that God

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has been teaching me even through my own

health journey I've been going through.

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I might share about that

a little bit, but Yeah.

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So understanding the spiritual realm.

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So we're gonna be talking about really

an ancient near Eastern worldview.

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The worldview of the biblical authors

and And just how that relates to

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what we know about God and Jesus

and his presence in our lives.

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And some of this is, it gets a

little weird or a little wacky

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sometimes so stay with me.

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I weird or wacky is probably

the wrong language to use.

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More like it's, it might be

different than what we're used to.

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But it is the Bible.

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The Bible has some

interesting parts to it.

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And I think I've been learning that

those are some of the best parts, the

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parts you gotta wrestle with, or the

parts you don't understand sometimes

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are where some of the best gems are.

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And every, all of us, Come at

things from a cultural framework.

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And so we have a certain culture,

a cultural lens that we look at the

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Bible through in, in this modern and

now postmodern society, we're part of

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postmodernism actually is kind of a better

framework for seeing some of these things.

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Modernism, you want to know what

all the rules are and how it all

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works and we can figure it all out.

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That's kind of, That's the worldview that

has informed our theology for a long time.

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But No, God is spirit and he

is unknowable by definition.

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Right?

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So, there's going to have

to be some mystery involved.

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There's going to have to be some

being okay with uncertainty or

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being okay with what we can't know.

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And so that's kind of what my journey

has been is being willing to be okay

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with uncertainty or being willing

to be okay with what I don't know.

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I have myself have always

been, especially young age.

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I started reading at a pretty

young age and I read so many books

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when I was a kid that I, my, my

eyes, I really messed up my eyes.

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Cause I was always looking close.

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So I have a very strong prescription

for my glasses or my contacts.

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I can't.

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Early in our marriage, my wife

found me huddled over our cat.

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She asked me Hey, can

you bring me my purse?

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And she found me.

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Up close, like looking over the

cat, because I thought the cat

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was the purse because it was

about the same size and shape.

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So I'm really blind without my my glasses.

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But anyway we're going to be talking

about oh, I, I was the reason

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I was saying that and sometimes

I'm recovering from brain cancer.

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So I, sometimes I get off track.

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So if that happens I'm going to be

talking about Just stay with me.

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I'll hopefully find my way back.

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But I was sharing that

because I was such a reader.

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I was such an avid reader as a kid that I,

my eyesight went bad, but I love to read.

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And one of the things I love

to read was the fantasy genre.

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And I was reading this book of series,

a series of books called The everybody's

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familiar with the Chronicles of Narnia.

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I loved all of those, but also the

Zanth novels and and others by this

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author called Piers Anthony, that was

a fantasy and science fiction writer.

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And I read every, everything he wrote back

when I was in middle school, or maybe it

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was even elementary school, maybe fifth

grade or something, but I loved That

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fantasy genre and that is, 1 of the, if

you think of all the blockbusters they

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typically are in that fantasy genre, or

you think of the the Star Trek series.

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The popularity of that, the stranger

things series popularity that Lord of

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the Rings trilogy and just the whole.

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World building of the Lord of the

Rings Tolkien you know, it's and CS

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Lewis and Narnia, of course these

this genre, why is it so popular?

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I think it's because there's something

in us that we know there's more than just

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what we can see and experience in a modern

way of just this sort of And even what we

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can know from science about reality, it

blows your mind, the fundamental aspects

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of reality that, that, the quantum physics

is introducing us to and things like that.

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It's crazy.

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Like we live in a universe that is really

dramatically blows your it's mind boggling

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that just the scope of it, the size of it.

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And I think people are drawn to these

kind of fantasy Series or books or stories

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because as the book of Ecclesiastes

put it, puts it, God has put eternity

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into our hearts Ecclesiastes 3.

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11 there's something about the human

condition that longs for something

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beyond human experience something divine

you know, there, there's something

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in us that it's the way what we were

made as human beings, for Paul, this

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impulse is so powerful that it has to

be willfully suppressed in order, in

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Romans 1, 18 through 23 talks about how

humans have suppressed, tried to suppress

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this impulse of worshiping the divine

because it's it's just so powerful.

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It's so who we are.

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So my background with some of the

stuff I'm going to be talking about

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and talking about the spiritual realm

and understanding the spiritual realm

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and kind of what I've been learning

lately how I've come at this is it's

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been a real kind of transitional way

of thinking for me, a different way of

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thinking and really from even from an

academic standpoint a long time, all the

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way back to middle school or so, I would

apologetics was something I was really

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into and just trying to understand, what

does it mean to, to look at the observable

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universe, but also believe in God.

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And I was trying to reconcile science

and religion, even in middle school or

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something, I remember reading this book

called know why you believe and trying

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to figure out I love God, but I also love

science and how can I reconcile the two?

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And, because our society or this time

that we're in, especially the last a

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hundred years or so especially since

Darwin onward, wants to bring science

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and conflict and science and religion or

theology and conflict with one another.

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And and so I, I was really into that

and I read everything there was on

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apologetics and intelligent design.

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I read all of the, there's especially

in the nineties intelligent design was

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kind of a big thing these different

Michael Behe and these other authors.

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I read everything by all of

them and was really into that.

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Kind of a framework of trying to have

evidence for God in different ways or

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kind of reconciling science in the Bible.

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But going to back to school, going back

to college, I decided to pursue a a

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secondary degree in, in, in in religion

and went back to school from:

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Those four years.

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And really that caused me to rethink

and even prior to that I was rethinking

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this way that I'd been reading the

Bible, like trying to make Genesis fit

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A scientific framework, for example,

like I would try to go, okay maybe this

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is Genesis is you're looking at it from

the eyes of an observer on planet earth.

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And so you're seeing, the beginning

God created, there's light and dark.

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And that's because on planet earth

is covered by this heavy covering

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of of Of atmosphere, and the

early earth, it was an atmosphere.

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So you wouldn't have

been able to see the sky.

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You wouldn't be able to see the stars.

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You could just see light.

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And so from the standpoint of an

observer on earth, you can see, all

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you can see is light and darkness.

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And then, when it says God made the stars

and okay, then that's where the, have

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the early earth, The atmosphere part, is

able to be more clear and you can see the

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stars, you know, and that kind of thing

trying to make Genesis fit the scientific

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framework when what I was doing was not

taking the Bible on its own terms, like

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reading the Bible as it was designed to

be read by the authors of the text, or

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even trying to respect the Bible from

a cultural standpoint, the culture that

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the biblical authors are coming from is

a very different culture than my own.

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It's not a scientific culture.

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And that's not the reason it was written.

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And so that's been a journey, the, since.

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2016, 2014, whatever on maybe even

before, but just of really learning

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to learn to look at the Bible

through different, a different lens.

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And there's different lenses.

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You can read the Bible from a

historical critical lens is a real

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popular one where they're trying to go.

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What really happened?

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What was the.

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Let's try to kind of that scientific

worldview, look at the Bible, whereas

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what the Bible is it's a story.

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And I love the way the

Bible project puts it.

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And I'll talk about the Bible

project for a minute here, but their

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slogan is we believe the Bible is a

unified story that leads to Jesus.

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And so that's more of a narrative

perspective more of a narrative

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approach lens, hermeneutical lens

is looking at this is a story.

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And it's using, it's has incredible

literary art Even just if you like

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the Bible project videos, they do a

great job of explaining some of the

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literary art that is in the texts,

all the different parts of the Bible.

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And so I've been learning to

read the Bible from its own,

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respect it for what it is.

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And maybe if it's, if the Bible is

attesting to a transcendent God.

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That made all of this and even

is in a dimension beyond here or

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that heaven and earth are one.

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But we can't see, we can only

see this part, but there's more.

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I mean, that's what the Bible is all

about from beginning to end, right?

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Is this other realm, the spiritual

realm contrast of heaven and earth.

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But heaven and earth eventually being one

in heaven and earth were one initially

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in the garden of Eden and heaven and

earth are one at the end in the book

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of Revelation as the bride meets the

groom and heaven and earth are united.

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And anyway not to get too into that,

but I just have been learning more

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of and gaining so much more from the

Bible, especially like the book of

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Genesis from reading it for what it's

trying to tell me, which is It's trying

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to explore the deepest questions.

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Who are humans?

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Why were humans made?

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What are we here for?

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What is our relationship

to God meant to be?

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And where did it go off track?

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And It's very sophisticated this, the,

these ancient Hebrew texts, but we kind

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of get off track when we try to read them

for, from a, for scientific purposes.

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So anyway I mentioned all

that to say that I've been.

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Really looking at things differently

and that kind of opens things up because

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I do believe in a transcendent God.

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I do believe in a God who became a

human being, whatever that means.

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How is that possible for

God to take on flesh?

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But I believe in that.

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That's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

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That's what, that's my hope.

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As I look into the future is that

there is a resurrection to come.

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There is a renewal and

restoration of all things to come.

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It's really the hope that I have

is in this transcending God.

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But it is a God, it's a different,

it requires a different framework.

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Or I would say more robust framework.

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I think the scientific worldview fits

super well into this, but you, but

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it's only a little part of it, the what

science can show us and even science

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itself attests to that, science itself

if you've heard about this thing called

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dark matter or dark energy, basically

it's just, are what we can see and know

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is only about 8 percent or something like

that, or maybe it's 4%, I think, of the,

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what the mass that is in our universe.

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So we don't know what is this dark energy?

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What is this dark matter?

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We don't understand 94 percent

of matter itself, you know?

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So we know so little and so we should

respect if God is claiming to have

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spoken to us through the prophets and

More profoundly and more completely

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in these last days through his own

son, we should respect his worldview

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and maybe there is some truth to it.

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Anyway, my main source in some of what

I'm sharing about is the Bible project.

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And they have as particular, if

you want to know more about how

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the spiritual beings, as we're

talking about the spiritual realm,

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I would recommend the Bible.

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The God podcast series.

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They started out just,

this is back in:

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Just trying to talk about the

Elohim and this word that's.

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In this, in our text in the n IV version,

if you read NIV or whatever English

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version, a lot of times when it just says

God or Lord, there is could be the word

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Elohim there, and Elohim can be Yahweh.

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The God of Israel the as

the supreme Elohim, or.

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Elohim could also be like small G God.

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So sometimes it's translated

with a small G God.

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Sometimes they don't know exactly.

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And so if you read multiple translations,

you can kind of see The translator sort

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of wrestling with this, but the point

is that the ancient world viewed their

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viewed a populated heavenly realm and

these heavenly beings are referred to.

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as Elohim.

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And if you want to know more about that

as well, I, there's an author I would

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recommend to you called Michael Heiser.

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And he's written a book called The

Unseen Realm and others that are

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the subheading is Recovering the

Supernatural Worldview of the Bible.

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And just being willing to again, read

the Bible for what it's saying to us,

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which is it's automatically assumes

the Bible authors assume this populated

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heavenly realm and spiritual beings

that Not only are there, but they're

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not indifferent they're involved.

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God has a divine counsel that he

works with to rule the universe.

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And that counsel that, and those spiritual

beings are involved in the ongoings

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of, God's people and there are other

spiritual beings that are involved in

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these world powers and these things

that are happening on a political level.

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That's the way that, the Bible authors

viewed it And I believe it's true.

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It gives more meaning.

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It gives more, it gives us more hope.

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If we believe that God is ruling and

reigning and he knows what he's doing and

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we're on a trajectory towards something,

it gives meaning to sometimes the

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chaotic things that happen in our world.

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So, just, let me just give you a

few examples of this language that

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is used about the divine counsel.

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And these spiritual beings that are the

biblical author's view in the realm above.

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Here's some scriptures from the Psalms.

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Psalm 82, 1 and verse 6.

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It says, God stands in

the divine assembly.

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He administers judgment

in the midst of the gods.

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So that midst of the God, that

word where it's translated gods

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with a small G, that's the Elohim.

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And Elohim is a word,

a Hebrew word, which.

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It can be translated gods, it can

be translated angels or holy ones,

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or, but it's these spiritual beings.

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So, the biblical authors envisioned

Yahweh Elohim, the supreme God,

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the God of gods, the king over all

gods, Yahweh is the supreme above

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all spiritual beings, but there is

this spiritual this divine counsel.

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And they also believe that these

I'll talk about that in a minute.

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There's a connection between the

Elohim and angels or connection

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between angels or messengers.

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From heavenly messengers, but there's a

connection between them and the stars.

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And the host of heaven, and And

that has all kinds of implications

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for the birth story, right?

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Where the sky is full

of the host of heaven.

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That's The language, the

Bible uses for the stars.

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So there's some connection between

stars and spiritual beings.

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And I'll talk more about that in a minute.

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Let me just read a couple others here.

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Psalm 89, five through seven says, so the

heavens will praise your wonderful deeds.

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Oh, Yahweh.

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Even your faithfulness in the

assembly of the holy ones for who

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in the sky is equal to Yahweh Who is

like Yahweh among the sons of God?

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God feared greatly in the council of

the holy ones and awesome above all

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surrounding him So again, there's

this language, the sons of God, and,

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we recall the story and not to go too

into it, but Genesis six, where the

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fall of these holy ones, that the son

of God saw that the daughters of men

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were They saw that they looked good.

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And so they took them.

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So it's the same language as the

garden of Eden, where they looked and

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took, that look and took language.

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I looked and saw the fruit was good

and took and gave it to her husband.

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It's the same language where the

sons of God saw that the daughters

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of men were beautiful or tove.

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They looked good.

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They he went and they took

them as as their wives.

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And so, That this, there's this kind of

story of the, that keeps getting repeated

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and the spiritual beings are part of

that story and the sons of God or the

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these yeah these divine, these spiritual

beings that are in the heavenly hosts.

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Here's a couple more Psalm 95 verse

three says, give thanks to the God of

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gods for his loyal love endures forever.

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So the God where it's translated, God

of gods, it's king over all gods is how

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it's it says in the next verse, verse

three that the king over all Elohim.

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So God is this transcendent being that is.

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He is a spiritual being himself,

but he's in a whole other category.

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And so in ancient Israel, each

nation had sort of their God

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that was their national God.

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And so Yahweh initially is, he's the

God of Israel, but he's more than that.

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He's more than just a national God.

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He, in fact, is God.

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The God of all gods.

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He's the king of all kings.

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He's over all gods, as it says

in Psalm 95, Psalm 136, verse 2,

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give thanks to the God of gods for

his loyal love endures forever.

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And then Psalm 148, praise Yah,

praise Yahweh from the heavens, praise

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Him in the heights, praise Him all

His angels as messengers, spiritual

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messengers, praise Him all His hosts.

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That's the spiritual.

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The heavenly beings praise him sun

and moon praise him all stars of light

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again this connection between stars and

the hosts of heaven praise him highest

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heavens and waters above the heavens.

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Let them praise the name of Yahweh because

he commanded and they were created.

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The days of creation, the stars are

created early and to fill the sky, so

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God separates, God is creating order

and he's separating light from darkness.

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He said, separating water from

land and then he's filling.

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So he's filling these different

realms that he separates because

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he's bringing order from chaos

and then he fills these realms.

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And so the skies are

filled, populated with.

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The stars, the heavenly

hosts, the spiritual beings.

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And so the ancients believed that's

not just what we know to be gaseous

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balls of hydrogen turn hydrogen.

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That is, is.

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Is being converted into helium and

that's what's creating the star,

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but there's a spiritual realm.

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There's a spiritual reality to these,

those stars represent something else.

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And so I don't think they, they just

thought when they looked up, Oh,

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that's a God up there, or that's

a, a small G God, I think it's.

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It's that those stars, when we look

at those, it's pointing to a reality

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and that is the spiritual reality

of this, these these Elohim, these

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sons of God, these these stars

of light these spiritual beings.

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And, this is in a lot of the scripture

Job 38, verse seven as Job is

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wrestling with the deepest thoughts.

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questions of life how do you deal with

suffering in the world God is revealing

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to him a little bit of his creation and

he's talking about, basically he's saying,

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can you make a better universe Job and

do you really understand what's going on?

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Were you there in Job 38, 7, when the

morning stars were singing together

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and all of the suns shouted for joy.

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This is as the Earth's

foundation is being laid.

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And I wrote a song years ago.

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From this passage called Rejoice,

and it's from this passage in Others.

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It says, I will lift my voice and

join the song creation is singing.

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And the the first verse says the

morning stars and angels singing

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and joyful music as the world began.

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So it's this it's not only here

in Joe, but on other places, but

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that God's creation is part of

the, This heavenly story, right?

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And so the, it says that the sons of God,

the heavenly host was shouting for joy

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as the earth's foundation was being laid.

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So the Bible is teaching us that

heavenly beings are involved with

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what's happening down on earth.

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And so they are, they don't

just stand somewhere else.

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Or they're not just, um, just

to have their own thing going.

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They are concerned with

what's going on down here.

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And that just again, it made me

think really differently and the

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for my last album that I released

a music called the heavens declare.

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That's really what I was thinking about.

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And when I made the album cover I tried

to paint the stars as I don't know.

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I was thinking about them as being

beings, these spiritual beings and that

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are, um, are worshiping God, you know?

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And again, I don't think that I

don't think that on a physical

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way that, I love science.

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I know how stars are made.

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I think in fact it's profound

that we are from the stars.

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It's you don't get stars or you don't

get the kind of molecules or the kind

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of elements that we are made of carbon

and and others until you get stars.

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And then those stars collapse

and in their collapse, they form

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these heavily heavy elements.

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And then there's a supernova.

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And then those elements are spewed out

into the, this is what science teaches us.

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So like we are made of stardust

literally from a scientific viewpoint.

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So stars stars really meant

something special to the ancients.

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And I want to respect that and reclaim

that and think about there's just

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a much bigger realm than I know of.

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And so that means that.

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Heavenly beings what the Bible

teaches is that heavenly beings are

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involved in our earthly struggles.

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And so.

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In Job this book that I was referencing

the way that it talks about in the

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beginning is that there's this court,

this divine council, and it says, Job 1

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verse 6, the sons of God or Elohim, the

heavenly, this is the heavenly court.

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These beings come to present

themselves before Yahweh.

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And the Satan or the adversary the

opposer also came into their midst.

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So there's these parallel storylines

going on, Job is down on the earth

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and something's going on with him,

but there's something going on in the

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heavens and they're related, they're

interested in what's going on the earth.

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And then just one more thing

I'll share here and then I'll

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save the rest for part two.

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But, the story of Daniel is the

story of of a person who's devout,

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who is having profound things happen

to him, but there's heavenly beings

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that know about it and are involved.

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And so I'll share about that in

segment two, but for me personally,

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this gives me so much comfort and

hope in the spiritual battle I'm

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in right now fighting brain cancer.

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And and just the different things that

we go through, the things our church is

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going through things in my family has

gone through just to believe that I'm

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part of a bigger spiritual struggle.

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It gives me encouragement.

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It gives me hope.

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It brings meaning to my struggle.

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And even as I am, I'm facing this, I have

this terminal illness and I don't know.

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Really if I have days or decades

left in this realm thinking about

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heaven, knowing and being involved

and being the God I pray to is the God

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that's over all the spiritual realm.

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It brings meaning to to that.

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And so in the next session, I'll talk a

little bit more about Daniel and what we

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can learn from him and how it can help

inform the way that we pray and the way

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that we just where we put our trust.

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Marcel: Thank you, Brian.

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And thank you for listening to the Deeper

Dive Podcast by the OC Church of Christ.

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As we mentioned earlier, you can find the

link for Brian's blog in the show notes.

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Again, this episode is part

one of a two part series.

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We will conclude this

series in our next episode.

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If you want to get connected to us

or want to donate to the program, go

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to our website OCchurchof christ.com

or through social media @TheOCchurch.

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Join us next time for part two of

"Understanding The Spiritual Realm."

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