Episode 3

The Journey - Spiritual Walls

In this episode of “The Journey”, Robert explains the concept of spiritual walls and how they affect our growth as Christians but also how to overcome them in order to experience God’s best for you. Whatever the walls you are facing, this episode will encourage you to trust God and His grace in your life.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast “Deeper Dive” on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a review. We’d love to hear from you and how this podcast is helping you on your journey. You can also follow us on social media for more updates and sneak peeks. And don’t forget to share this episode with your friends and family who might be interested in joining us on this journey. Thank you for listening and God bless you!

Click here to donate to the program

Click here for more Deeper Dive Episodes

OC Church of Christ

Transcript
Marcel:

Welcome to the Deeper Dive Podcast brought to you by the OC Church of Christ.

2

:

The Deeper Dive Podcast is about going

deeper into God's word, learning new

3

:

insight and taking a fresh look at the

verses that impact our daily lives.

4

:

Today's episode is part three from

The Journey by Robert Carrillo.

5

:

So get your scuba gear and

let's dive deep into God's word.

6

:

Here's Robert Carrillo.

7

:

Robert: So this class is, is part three,

The Wall, the Desert, and the Dark Night.

8

:

You know, we, we talked about, we've

talked about transformation, and we've

9

:

talked about the walls that we, the stages

of development, you know, the, the, the

10

:

early stage where we discover God, where,

where we recognize God, the stage of Bye.

11

:

Bye.

12

:

Bye.

13

:

Bye.

14

:

Bye.

15

:

of, uh, the life of discipleship, what

we learn to live as disciples, the stage

16

:

of productivity, where we get good at

it and we get productive and, you know,

17

:

we're doing lots of things for God.

18

:

And usually in that stage, and that stage

can go 10, 20, 30 years, but, but there's

19

:

these growing, uh, feelings we get, or.

20

:

Growing discontent or grow or something

happens that triggers us and we get

21

:

stuck in a wall We hit this wall.

22

:

So we're going to talk about that wall

and getting through that and I think it's

23

:

incredibly Important because many get

stuck there So we're gonna start with

24

:

John for and then Michelle's gonna share

some thoughts on this Let me go ahead

25

:

and read it And then, Michelle, if you

could, um, share some thoughts on this.

26

:

So, in John 4, uh, Jesus answered her.

27

:

Remember, this is a scene

of the woman at the well.

28

:

He says, If you knew the gift of God

and who it is that asks you for a

29

:

drink, you would have asked Him And

he would have given you living water.

30

:

Sir, the woman said, you have nothing

to draw with, and the well is deep.

31

:

Where can you get this living water?

32

:

Are you greater than our father

Jacob, who gave us the well and

33

:

drank from it himself, as did

also his sons and his livestock?

34

:

Jesus answered, Everyone who

drinks this water will be thirsty

35

:

again, but whoever drinks the water

I give them will never thirst.

36

:

Indeed, the water I give them

will become in them a spring of

37

:

water welling up to eternal life.

38

:

The woman said to him, Sir, give me this

water so that I won't get thirsty and

39

:

have to keep coming here to draw water.

40

:

There's some important principles here.

41

:

Michelle, would you like to I'm kind

of putting you on the spot because

42

:

I didn't even know you were going

to be able to make it tonight.

43

:

But would you like to share

some thoughts on this?

44

:

Yeah, I can.

45

:

I can share.

46

:

Um, and then you can.

47

:

Add to it or whatever.

48

:

Okay.

49

:

Yeah, I think, um, I was reading

this scripture the other day

50

:

and, um, it kind of especially.

51

:

Okay.

52

:

I'm going to say all this.

53

:

I don't know how much it whatever.

54

:

Okay.

55

:

So in helping, um, uh, another

region work through some.

56

:

Things in their ministries, I'm

realizing, like, sometimes you can

57

:

get with a group of people and, and

they're, they, you know, want help for

58

:

the single moms for the marriage for the

teens for the campus for the children's

59

:

ministry for, uh, chemical recovery for.

60

:

You know, a whole lot of specific things.

61

:

And I, of course, I want all those

people to have the help that they need.

62

:

And, um, and yet at the same time,

as people can list all these things,

63

:

then they might even also say, but

nobody wants to volunteer to help.

64

:

And, um, I think it kind of got

me thinking about how obviously

65

:

God wants all these needs met.

66

:

He wants people cared for, but I

think his answer is different than

67

:

the answers we've come up with.

68

:

And that's not to say we don't have

a class here or there, or we don't,

69

:

um, focus on some of these needs.

70

:

Um, but, um, I think when Jesus said, if

you knew the gift of God, And who it is

71

:

that asks you for a drink, you would ask

him and he would give you living water.

72

:

And it kind of stood out to me that

in, in, um, when we're baptized.

73

:

I mean, we were told and now you will

receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and

74

:

then we say, you know, and everybody

shares and and we just leave the gift.

75

:

They're all wrapped up and we

don't know what to do with him.

76

:

And it kind of just made me realize

that if we can really point people

77

:

to what is really going to quench

their thirst, what is really going

78

:

to make them, um, satisfied and

filled and, um, not thirsty anymore.

79

:

It's Jesus.

80

:

And I think sometimes we forget that.

81

:

As leaders, we forget that as people,

we forget that as ministry people

82

:

that if we can teach people how

to go to Jesus to get this living

83

:

water, then they won't be thirsty.

84

:

But if we continue to just

be the well in their life.

85

:

Here, let me scoop out

some water for you here.

86

:

Here's a cup.

87

:

Now, that can be for the whole day

and next week to, you know, I mean,

88

:

I think sometimes we, we, we kind of

mess up the plan with our plans, right?

89

:

Like, if we can help people really

know that Jesus is the living

90

:

water that to teach them how

to go get a drink from him to.

91

:

To remember that God is always

with us that, um, this is,

92

:

this is where we get our life.

93

:

It's from him.

94

:

It's not from people.

95

:

It's not from even from the church,

although we obviously need the

96

:

community, we need each other.

97

:

That's not where the

living water comes from.

98

:

So, um, but I do think that it it's.

99

:

It sounds well, it's just

fundamentally correct that we

100

:

go to God for this living water.

101

:

We go to Jesus for this living water and

we don't try to be a well in their life.

102

:

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, um, and,

and the reason why we were going into

103

:

dealing with the wall with this scripture

as an introduction to that is because

104

:

it is the most fundamental principle.

105

:

It may sound obvious, like, well,

of course, it's Jesus that helps us.

106

:

Of course, it's the Holy Spirit that

will get us through things, but.

107

:

It isn't our our practical instinct.

108

:

It isn't what we naturally do.

109

:

We want we want to You know as when we're

leaders We want to fix everybody or we

110

:

create a program or we expect things

to help us to serve us To fix us or to

111

:

do for us And oftentimes the practical

reality is we're not turning to God.

112

:

We're not going to the well of life,

which, you know, of course, water

113

:

represents the Holy Spirit, and we're

not drinking from the Holy Spirit.

114

:

We're not learning how to, to, uh,

Rely on the Holy Spirit that we're

115

:

not learning how to yoke ourselves to

Jesus We're looking for solutions and

116

:

if and if the first solution isn't

coming to the well of Jesus, then

117

:

we find other things It's a program.

118

:

It's a leadership model.

119

:

It's the way the church

should be organized.

120

:

It's how we do church.

121

:

It's top down leadership It's this that

and all those things are important.

122

:

I'm not saying they're not important We

got to get those things right, but what's

123

:

far more important is that we learn how

to draw from Jesus, that we learn how

124

:

to drink from the Holy Spirit, because

that's the water that will keep us from

125

:

being in thirst and hunger all the time.

126

:

That's the water that quenches our thirst.

127

:

That's the water that

blesses us and helps us.

128

:

And this is important.

129

:

This is the important principle

behind dealing with the walls that

130

:

we're, we're going to hit in life.

131

:

And in fact, the very reason there

are even leaders in the church or

132

:

leaders in life for this very reason.

133

:

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the

prophets, the evangelists, the pastors,

134

:

and teachers to equip his people for works

of service so that the body of Christ may

135

:

be built up until we all reach unity in

the faith and in the knowledge of the son

136

:

of God and become mature attaining to the

whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

137

:

In other words, that we

all grow up in Jesus.

138

:

And attain, attain, that we grab

a hold of, that we drink deeply,

139

:

that we, that we root ourselves,

that we ground ourselves in Jesus.

140

:

Then we'll no longer be infants tossed

back and forth by the waves blown

141

:

here and there, by the wind of every

teaching, by the cunning and craftiness

142

:

of people and their deceitful scheming.

143

:

Instead, speaking the truth in love,

we will grow to become, in every

144

:

respect, the mature body of Him.

145

:

Right?

146

:

Of Jesus, who is the

head, that is, Christ.

147

:

So it's all about, and every role of

leadership is about growing up in Jesus.

148

:

Learning how to drink the water from

Him, so that we're not constantly

149

:

thirsty, so we don't have to

keep coming back, so we solidify.

150

:

And that really is The root or the, the,

the foundation of getting through walls.

151

:

So just as a reminder, we talk, you know,

as we're marching along in our Christian

152

:

life, we're in that productive stage.

153

:

And then we hit a wall.

154

:

It can be a faith crisis, you know,

that, that something terrible happens to

155

:

somebody we love, uh, you know, something.

156

:

unfathomable.

157

:

A child gets cancer or, or

something happens in the world

158

:

that just rocks our faith.

159

:

And we hit this wall of why,

God, why would you allow this?

160

:

Why, why didn't you do this?

161

:

Why didn't you, we prayed to you.

162

:

Why didn't you change it?

163

:

That sometimes is a wall that we hit.

164

:

We hit conflicts in the

church that just rock us.

165

:

We get in a conflict with another

leader or another brother or sister

166

:

and, and we just can't fix it.

167

:

And it becomes a wall.

168

:

We can't move forward.

169

:

We're, we're, we're not happy.

170

:

We're not, we're, we're upset.

171

:

We feel, you know, it's

not fair or it's not right.

172

:

And that could be a wall, a life

crisis, you know, something happens.

173

:

We lose something, we lose a job.

174

:

We, we go through a crisis, something

that, that we didn't, we, we didn't

175

:

want to see happen in our life, you

know, or somebody we love something

176

:

happens to somebody we're close to

things that are unresolved doubts,

177

:

questions we had about the church, about

the Bible, about God, about a leader,

178

:

about a person that after, you know,

we could only, we could, we ignored it.

179

:

We brushed it under the rug 5, 10, 15

years, and that rug had a mountain that

180

:

we just couldn't get beyond anymore.

181

:

And then we have to deal with it.

182

:

We gotta deal with our doubts.

183

:

We gotta deal with, or sometimes it's,

it's hurts that are not resolved, right?

184

:

And they're piling up and

piling up and piling up.

185

:

And like a couple that hasn't

resolved their conflicts, they

186

:

just blow up one day, right?

187

:

We blow up with the church.

188

:

We blow up with leaders.

189

:

We blow up with somebody

in our Bible talk.

190

:

And then another one that's very

different, but very, I would say

191

:

one of the most common ones is

burnout, where we just get tired.

192

:

We've physically pushed too far, too much.

193

:

And, and we get to a point

where we hit a wall physically.

194

:

I just, I can't do this anymore.

195

:

Uh, or emotionally.

196

:

And oftentimes these

three are tied together.

197

:

But emotionally getting burned out where

I've got I've yeah, I've got compassion

198

:

fatigue I just can't give anymore or

spiritual fatigue for spiritual burnout.

199

:

I don't want to lead anything I don't want

you know, we've all felt that we've all

200

:

seen others pull away and say, you know

people who led House churches or led lots

201

:

of people to Jesus or we're in there.

202

:

We're doing marriage counseling helping

other couples And then they hit a wall and

203

:

they're like don't ask me to do anything

I think we got a lot of people there.

204

:

They're just they're sitting in the back

and they're like i'm done i'm done Don't

205

:

ask me to do anything They're just they're

at burnout and they need to get through

206

:

this and there's a way to get through

it the last one is the the dark night

207

:

of the soul, this is probably one of the

toughest ones because um You know, it's

208

:

it's it's different than all the others.

209

:

This is when you just you feel like

you've lost god You you're praying

210

:

But you're not connecting you feel

like you're talking to a wall.

211

:

You feel like god has

abandoned you This is psalm 22.

212

:

My god.

213

:

My god.

214

:

Why have you forsaken me?

215

:

You feel alone you you're

praying if you haven't seen it.

216

:

You got to see the movie the two popes um,

I think I recommended this already, but

217

:

it's It's a it's a movie about the dark

night of the soul and one of the popes

218

:

is going through a dark night of the soul

And there's little there's a little scene

219

:

at the beginning that I never caught it

the first couple of times I saw it But

220

:

like the third or I think it was the third

time I saw it that I caught it at the

221

:

beginning There's a candle and the candle

burns out And the smoke just goes down.

222

:

It doesn't go up.

223

:

And of course, if you remember smoke,

the smoke rising from the, from

224

:

the, from the temple was the prayers

of the saints going up to heaven.

225

:

In other words, his prayer wasn't

going up to heaven anymore.

226

:

It was just dropping down.

227

:

That's the dark night of the soul.

228

:

You feel alone.

229

:

You feel abandoned.

230

:

And.

231

:

And the thing is, is that you don't

get to the mature or the deeper,

232

:

stronger stages of spirituality

until you get through these walls.

233

:

And, and these walls are very difficult.

234

:

They're tough times.

235

:

A lot of people slip into deconstruction

where just, I don't know, I don't

236

:

know if I Believe in the church.

237

:

I don't know if I believe in our doctrine

sometimes even I don't know if I believe

238

:

in God or I believe in the Bible We we

get this place where we got questions.

239

:

We have doubts We have fears and we have

to work through them and you know, I

240

:

mentioned this in the last class that

sometimes it's really challenging because

241

:

we we can get kind of cranky in this

stage and we question everything and we

242

:

And we kind of demand the answers and

we can get kind of prideful about this.

243

:

And, and, you know, this is what

like spiritual adolescence, it's

244

:

like when our preteens start

questions, why do we have to do this?

245

:

Why do we got to have family devotionals?

246

:

Why do we have to believe, you know, why

do we got to go to church every Sunday?

247

:

I mean, I remember when each of my kids.

248

:

It's hitting that stage and questioning.

249

:

Why do I have to do it?

250

:

What you say, you know, it's like,

wait a second, buddy, I'm your dad.

251

:

I do it because I say so.

252

:

And that same temptation

is for all leaders, right?

253

:

It's a member starts questioning.

254

:

Why are we doing this?

255

:

Why do we have to do that in the church?

256

:

Who, you know, why, why do

we have to do what you say?

257

:

And the temptation for the leaders is

to come down and say, because I say so.

258

:

That's why, because we

generally don't like.

259

:

Dealing with rebellion or deconstruction

is like a dirty word, especially these

260

:

days, you know, and we're seeing it.

261

:

We're seeing lots of young people

deconstruct Christianity deconstruct the

262

:

church, and there's that temptation to

come down on them, you know, how dare you

263

:

question or don't you know, you know, and,

and, you know, as parents, when we had

264

:

teens, most of us learned not to react.

265

:

To love them through it to help them

get through that phase or at the very

266

:

least just hang in there You know hang

in there don't react don't destroy

267

:

your relationship with your son or your

daughter Just keep loving them and they'll

268

:

get through this this too will pass And

and that's you know for for many leaders.

269

:

That's a that's a very hard thing to

keep loving somebody Who's at a wall,

270

:

or who's deconstructing the church.

271

:

But the problem is, this is a normal

part of spiritual development.

272

:

We all go through these stages, where

we're just like, I'm not believing

273

:

this anymore, I'm not doing this

anymore, or I don't agree with that.

274

:

And that's okay.

275

:

I mean, we have to figure

out what is our faith.

276

:

And that's, that's what begins the inward

journey where we start to figure out

277

:

not what does the church believe and

what have I practiced all these years.

278

:

It's what do I believe?

279

:

What do I really believe?

280

:

What's my conviction in this?

281

:

And in a sense, you become,

you, you rediscover God.

282

:

You kind of start over again.

283

:

You discover God.

284

:

You discover the Holy Spirit.

285

:

You figure out, what do I believe?

286

:

Similar to what you did

right after baptism.

287

:

You, you just kind of, you found God.

288

:

You found your faith.

289

:

You found your beliefs.

290

:

You found your way of life.

291

:

But now, it's 20, 30 years later, and you

have to figure out, what do I believe?

292

:

What is my faith?

293

:

What conviction about this?

294

:

So, it's a, it's a, um, It's a tough stage

and but everybody goes through it and not

295

:

just once we go through it multiple times

And in every one of those categories we

296

:

go through One person can go through all

those categories at different times And it

297

:

is you know, it's an existential crisis.

298

:

Who am I?

299

:

Who is God?

300

:

It could be, you know, crisis

of beliefs and motives.

301

:

What's real?

302

:

What is reality?

303

:

Um, what do I really believe?

304

:

And this is, this is where we dig deeper.

305

:

We have to get more honest and more real

with God and more real with each other.

306

:

And that honesty and reality,

that realness, the authenticity

307

:

oftentimes threatens leaders.

308

:

They're like, no, I'm not

going to talk about that.

309

:

I don't want to talk about that.

310

:

You know, you just, they, and, and,

and of course leaders, they love it

311

:

when people are in the productive stage

because they're producing, they're doing

312

:

a lot, but hit the wall and all of a

sudden they became a pain in the neck.

313

:

You know, it's like your kid

turning 14, all of a sudden that

314

:

cute little nine year old that.

315

:

Thought you were a hero and did everything

you said now is questioning you and

316

:

now is is demanding things and and not

cooperative So that's a tough part, but

317

:

that inward journey Is really important

to maturing to developing to figure out a

318

:

deeper faith a deeper conviction And when

people go through their inward journey,

319

:

which I think many of us are on Many

of us, uh, are in that inward journey,

320

:

figuring out what we really believe.

321

:

We're not as scared of

some leader kicking us out.

322

:

We're not as scared of, of what is the

church going to say like we were before.

323

:

Now we're more, we're more

like, hey, I want to, I want to

324

:

know what I think about this.

325

:

And this is what I believe.

326

:

And, and we're not

afraid of people anymore.

327

:

We're, we've become more.

328

:

Solid in our faith and in our convictions

and the great thing is when we become

329

:

solid in our own faith and convictions

We're able to love people again.

330

:

We're able to be more loving.

331

:

We're able to be more faithful We're

able to and we begin the outward

332

:

journey where but this this this

journey this phase It's coming.

333

:

We're leading from our soul.

334

:

We're leading from our spirit.

335

:

We're not leading from From this

is what people say, or this is what

336

:

the church says, or it's the issue.

337

:

Isn't the church anymore.

338

:

The issue is God and the Holy spirit.

339

:

Then the first part of, in the first

phases of spirituality, it's a lot

340

:

to do with the church and the social,

the social community of the church and

341

:

what does the church believe, and that

has a lot to do with our motivation

342

:

and our compliance and our dutifulness

and our response at this stage, we

343

:

tend to not worry about that so much.

344

:

At this stage, it's more

like, what does God want?

345

:

What is the Holy Spirit telling me?

346

:

And there's a tremendous freedom in that.

347

:

That I don't have to please people.

348

:

I just want to please the Lord.

349

:

And there's such freedom in that.

350

:

And we're free because we

learn to walk with God.

351

:

We're free to love freely.

352

:

We're free to be able to do that.

353

:

But the key is getting through that wall.

354

:

And these are some of the

things that, that we need.

355

:

And good for us to remember if, if we're

going through a wall, which we will be,

356

:

and we'll be probably again, but also

helping other people get through the

357

:

wall, the process of overcoming the wall.

358

:

First of all, It is a spiritual process.

359

:

Nobody gets through the wall without God.

360

:

And this is why a lot of people fall

away at the wall, because they're

361

:

not looking for spiritual solutions.

362

:

What we started out talking about,

the well, the well of life, Jesus,

363

:

He's the one that gets us through it.

364

:

And so we must turn to God.

365

:

We must turn to Jesus.

366

:

We must turn to the Holy Spirit.

367

:

to get through this wall.

368

:

And if we get mad and pull away,

we miss out on the very solution.

369

:

Honesty is important and required.

370

:

We have to get that level on,

okay, here's what I really think.

371

:

I don't agree with this.

372

:

Or, you know, you know what, honestly, I

never thought we were the only ones saved.

373

:

That was such a stupid teaching.

374

:

But I didn't want to say anything.

375

:

I didn't want to get in trouble.

376

:

But now I'm not saying that anymore.

377

:

I'm not teaching that I'm not gonna

talk like that or think like that.

378

:

I never believed it We get really honest.

379

:

Sometimes we kind of get mad honest,

but we get honest or or You know,

380

:

I don't understand why god would do

this or I don't understand why This

381

:

is happening in the church or that's

happening and just being honest and what

382

:

that does is it invites God's solution.

383

:

It invites the spirit

deep into our hearts.

384

:

And, you know, we've all read the Psalms

where David just pours his heart out.

385

:

And sometimes it's angry, sometimes it's

bitterness, sometimes it's vengeance.

386

:

And yet, but because he pours it, he

opens his heart to such a degree that

387

:

God is able to work in his heart.

388

:

And sometimes it just takes a radical

honesty, because when we're in the early

389

:

stages, we don't want to be that honest.

390

:

Oh, I'm fine.

391

:

Everything's awesome.

392

:

Oh, I believe, you know,

the church is wonderful.

393

:

Leaders are all wonderful.

394

:

Everything's wonderful.

395

:

With time, we believe that less,

and we know there are problems, and

396

:

eventually we gotta face those problems.

397

:

And we just gotta be honest.

398

:

I don't think this is good.

399

:

I think this has been a problem in the

church, or this has been a problem in

400

:

my life, or I'm struggling with it.

401

:

I feel like I shouldn't

be struggling with this.

402

:

That honesty invites God to work on us.

403

:

Forgiveness.

404

:

It's, it's really Yeah?

405

:

I'm sorry, I, I've been Raising my hand,

but I don't know I couldn't see you.

406

:

Sorry.

407

:

My hand is so little on the

screen Well, no, you know what?

408

:

I can't even see you.

409

:

It only showed me.

410

:

Oh So go ahead though.

411

:

Go ahead.

412

:

Sorry.

413

:

Um, yeah.

414

:

No, I think um If if I can just go back a

little bit to the spirituality Yeah, um,

415

:

I think there's some questions in there

that we need to ask of ourselves about You

416

:

know, like, even if you guys, like, like,

even recognizing how different it has

417

:

felt reading Psalm 23 and really absorbing

that really going through that, like, how

418

:

different that feels from maybe what our

to do list or our, um, uh, whatever we

419

:

had been doing in our quiet times before,

I think there's something, um, Definitely

420

:

missing that was definitely missing in my

life that I didn't realize how much God

421

:

wanted to be part of my quiet times, but

also my every day walking like, I think I

422

:

had the idea that I would spend this much

time with God in prayer in the morning.

423

:

And it was always, I do feel like

it was always very sincere and very.

424

:

Um, like, I feel like I really had

always focused on God, but not really

425

:

making space for God to answer me or to.

426

:

Always really be able to pour

out some, um, direction or

427

:

some comfort or some love.

428

:

Like I didn't really go into my quiet

times expecting God to say something.

429

:

And I think I felt more like I had

to figure it all out as I went.

430

:

And then I would get my little charge and

then I would go do all my work and then

431

:

I would come back and tell God how I did.

432

:

As if he didn't know, you know, and

I, I think it's, so I think that

433

:

spirituality, it's really looking

at how, how do I take God with me?

434

:

How do I allow God to truly

help me to like, really?

435

:

Um, treat my wounds even, or, you know,

I think what Robert was saying earlier

436

:

about asking, what am I afraid of?

437

:

What's behind this and being like

making space for God to really show us.

438

:

The answer to those questions, but then I

do think also, I think someone shared that

439

:

sometimes when we ask those questions,

it does bring up stuff that we don't

440

:

necessarily, we didn't necessarily expect.

441

:

Uh, you know, could be even like how

we were treated as a kid or something,

442

:

you know, but I think even leaning

into that a little bit, trusting that

443

:

if God is bringing it up, then He will

get me through and I, I think it is

444

:

more of a soul searching that we open

ourselves up for God to heal us and to

445

:

help us, um, and not, not really feeling

like we ourselves have to figure it

446

:

out, but that if we make that space.

447

:

For God through scriptures through

prayers, like, obviously, these are all

448

:

truth and good things are journaling.

449

:

Like, I think it's a way that

God really can minister to us.

450

:

And then, I guess, honesty,

is it right in there with it?

451

:

Because you can't do all that

without really being honest.

452

:

Well, maybe you can, but I

think really having, like,

453

:

recognizing the power of honesty.

454

:

You know how if however, we feel

whatever we're thinking to really lean

455

:

into God and trust that he's going

to help us with what's really there.

456

:

So, yeah.

457

:

Yeah, and, and, you know, I appreciate

that because it really is, this is where

458

:

things really require us to dig deep

spiritually, and, you know, honesty

459

:

is a difficult thing, it's not easy,

it's really facing the truth of what's

460

:

happening in my heart, what's in my

mind, and maybe even scary sometimes, you

461

:

know, if I've got a lot of anger, Yeah.

462

:

Or I've got bitterness in my heart or

and but but again you look at the psalms

463

:

and you see David's level of honesty and

being able to submit that to god being

464

:

able to To work that out with with god

and what it does is it just it brings god

465

:

at a much deeper level And there has to

be forgiveness closely attached to that.

466

:

We have to be compassionate with

ourselves and not judgmental.

467

:

And our culture and church culture,

not just us, all church cultures,

468

:

are very much towards judgmentalism.

469

:

Well, you shouldn't because, you know,

this and that, and how dare you, and And

470

:

the problem is it shuts down honesty.

471

:

It shuts down authenticity

and and we get stuck in this.

472

:

I've got to be doing great.

473

:

I've got to be awesome.

474

:

I've got to be mature.

475

:

And we try to fake it to make

it, but it doesn't really work.

476

:

And that's oftentimes

one of the walls we hit.

477

:

It's just I can't fake it anymore.

478

:

I can't pretend anymore.

479

:

So it's, you know, being spiritual,

being honest, being very gracious

480

:

and forgiving with ourselves,

acceptance and surrendering.

481

:

Thanks.

482

:

And this is usually, you know,

a big step in getting through a

483

:

wall is just surrendering to God.

484

:

Okay, God, you let this happen.

485

:

You made this happen, or you

let it happen, or, you know, it

486

:

happened and you didn't stop it.

487

:

So obviously you believe

I can get through this.

488

:

You know, you believe that.

489

:

That, um, this will help me.

490

:

And that acceptance is really important.

491

:

And what can happen when we

really surrender to God is we

492

:

can begin to see even the value

in suffering, the value in pain.

493

:

Jesus was made perfect through suffering.

494

:

I mean, suffering is one of those

things, nobody wants it, nobody

495

:

asks for it, everybody avoids

it, we don't want anything to do

496

:

with it, but it happens, right?

497

:

We suffer, and, and if we turn to God in

our suffering, we are perfected, we are

498

:

matured, we are, our faith is purified,

we are actually strengthened through it.

499

:

Actually it's part of God's grace and

mercy, and, and that is really needed.

500

:

You wanted to say something, Michelle?

501

:

Uh, well, I was just thinking how,

um, I think it really is, uh, all of

502

:

these things, it really is like falling

backwards into the arms of God because.

503

:

I think there are reasons why

we don't do these things, right?

504

:

We're afraid that maybe God's not

going to be that real, that God's not

505

:

really going to help us in these ways.

506

:

And it kind of reminds

me of when, um, my dad.

507

:

My dad died in 2020, and I started

having like these, um, light panic

508

:

attacks, and I had never had that before.

509

:

And I, you know, we talked to Doug,

who's a doctor or elder, and, you

510

:

know, he was asking questions about it.

511

:

But I think I also realized, okay, um.

512

:

You know, I, I started getting, like,

accumulating fears, like, oh, no,

513

:

like, if I have panic attacks, we're

not going to be in the ministry.

514

:

And if we're not, I'm not in the ministry,

Robert's not going to be in the ministry

515

:

and Robert should be in the ministry.

516

:

And what will we do?

517

:

And this is all we've ever done

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

518

:

like, really, like, starting to.

519

:

Really worry about a lot of things.

520

:

And then I thought, well, what if I'm

like this all the time and I can't even

521

:

function and I can't talk to people.

522

:

And, you know, I mean, really

like starting to worry about it.

523

:

And then I just thought, God, whatever

your will is for me, that's what I want.

524

:

And maybe, maybe I won't be that

helpful for anybody in the future.

525

:

Maybe this will be my future

and I want to be okay with that.

526

:

And.

527

:

Honestly, it almost like went away

after I had that thought and I'm not

528

:

saying it's always that simple or

anything, but I think that sometimes

529

:

Satan just scares us and chases us.

530

:

And we keep running and fighting and

screaming and crying everything else.

531

:

But I think if we're remembering

God is with us and God knows us

532

:

and God has a purpose for us.

533

:

And God has a plan for us.

534

:

And he, he wants us to come to him and.

535

:

He will help us.

536

:

However, he sees fit.

537

:

Yeah, I think there's a such a Comfort

in Surrendering to him and his will

538

:

yeah These are all you know keys of

getting through the wall The last one

539

:

is probably the biggest one is love It

takes a lot of love to get through a wall.

540

:

Uh, it takes accepting God's love.

541

:

And for some of us, that in itself

is a huge challenge that we think

542

:

God is disappointed in us, especially

when we're doubting or we're

543

:

struggling with anger or bitterness.

544

:

And we know we shouldn't be, you

know, and this is kind of like, Where,

545

:

um, I love the story of Elijah under

the broom tree, you know, when he,

546

:

he was just so deeply discouraged.

547

:

He was afraid and he

said, I should just die.

548

:

I'm no better than my ancestors and, and.

549

:

God doesn't judge him and deal with him.

550

:

God sends an angel to take care of him

You know and I love to share this story

551

:

because it's such a beautiful story where

where you know The angel comes to Elijah

552

:

and says the journey is too much for you I

love that he says that and I mean Elijah's

553

:

been through so much and he's done so many

courageous things, but clearly he hit that

554

:

wall where, you know, Jezebel's threat.

555

:

He just lost it.

556

:

He lost it.

557

:

And he took off running and you think,

wait a second, Elijah challenged all the

558

:

prophets that he'd done so many miracles.

559

:

Why did he lose it out?

560

:

He was physically, emotionally,

spiritually exhausted.

561

:

And what does God do?

562

:

God loves up on him.

563

:

He says, Elijah, the journey is too much.

564

:

I mean, he was discouraged to

the point of despairing of life.

565

:

And, and what does the angel do?

566

:

The angel makes him tortillas.

567

:

And he makes them fresh

tortillas, he gives them water,

568

:

he feeds them, he takes a nap.

569

:

I know, I know, it didn't say tortillas,

it says bread, but, you know, Middle

570

:

Eastern bread is tortillas, basically.

571

:

And he just loves up on him, and

he goes back and takes another

572

:

nap, and I think sometimes we don't

realize how much God loves us.

573

:

And yeah, he, he, even in our difficult,

even in our ugliness, sometimes even

574

:

in our anger, even in our, and in

fact, it's by being angry where we

575

:

see how much he loves us or by being

hopeless or being discouraged or being

576

:

depressed or being that, that we.

577

:

begin to see how much God loves us.

578

:

It's easy to think God loves us when

we're out there doing great things and

579

:

we're baptizing and we're, we're cranking

and doing all these wonderful things.

580

:

But what about when we're sitting

there depressed and discouraged

581

:

and broken feeling God's love, then

discovering God's love at that level.

582

:

Is life changing and that's what it

takes to get through this wall is

583

:

grabbing a hold of God's love and

the love that people have around us.

584

:

And it is oftentimes a

very lonely time of life.

585

:

It can be you feel misunderstood

because you've got doubts and

586

:

people that are still in the.

587

:

Discipleship stage or the production

stage look at you as well.

588

:

You're just rebellious and critical

and you're so unspiritual And you're

589

:

thinking dude i've been doing what

you do for 25 years That's not it.

590

:

There's something else going on in my

life And, and that's the problem with

591

:

judgmentalism in general, is that we

don't really know where each other are at.

592

:

And, and so it requires lots

of love to get through this.

593

:

And so what is necessary?

594

:

Well, you have to really

grab a hold of the Father.

595

:

You have to get, grab a hold

of God and times with God.

596

:

You've got to grab a hold of the Son.

597

:

You've got to focus your eyes on Jesus.

598

:

You've got to dig deep and spend time with

the Holy Spirit and quietness and solitude

599

:

You've got to have spiritual friends.

600

:

You need a community around you

of friends who are Spiritual

601

:

who will help you through this.

602

:

They will love you through it They will

hang in there with you And this is why

603

:

it's really sad when people hit walls

in the church and they have no friends

604

:

They almost always fall away because

they can't get through it They get stuck

605

:

at the wall and they lose their faith.

606

:

They lose their They lose their,

their souls in this, um, we need

607

:

lots of prayer and scripture.

608

:

This is, you know, that you're

discovering the power of just reciting

609

:

Psalm 23 and there's 119 other songs,

you know, I mean, but just that

610

:

one right there, boom, can changes.

611

:

I mean, that's transformed my life.

612

:

I recite that daily for the last.

613

:

Three or four years and it's

totally changed my life.

614

:

It's in a great way.

615

:

I would not like it converted me But it

it's given me strength when I needed it.

616

:

It's given me inspiration when I

needed it um, and and the time to be

617

:

In solitude to just be with god And

time to rest This is really important

618

:

because it's that, that jar, you know,

that jar of river water that's swirling

619

:

with mud, it settles, the water clears.

620

:

Sometimes that's part of getting

through the wall, is being able

621

:

to rest, let ourselves calm down,

let ourselves be still, and, and

622

:

let things become clear and good.

623

:

And that's, that, that is just

a vitally important part of it.

624

:

So these are some of the things

that get us through the wall.

625

:

And for us to remember when, you know,

somebody we love is also struggling

626

:

and that what really, you know, we, we,

we move towards a life of love, which

627

:

is the final stage where, where final

stages of, of spirituality, which they

628

:

also called sometimes the convergent

stage where everything comes together.

629

:

The difficulties, the challenge, the pain,

the suffering, the joys, the victories,

630

:

it all kind of, we begin to see how

this all works as part of our journey.

631

:

And of course, this is God's gift to us,

to learn to live a life of love, a life of

632

:

joy, a life of peace, a life of patience,

of kindness and goodness and faithfulness

633

:

and gentleness and self control.

634

:

You know, that, that, this,

this is the end game here.

635

:

To get so we have to get through the

wall sometimes and so and and guess what

636

:

you know It's really a spiral because

you'll come back around to another wall

637

:

You know and and but the the good news

is we get better and better at getting

638

:

through the wall because we learn

these patterns of grabbing a hold of

639

:

god of holding the gods and changing

hand and Prayer and and gathering

640

:

friends around us or having somebody

to talk to and we get better at this

641

:

So I end with this scripture that

we've shared before, what you

642

:

are is God's gift to you, what

you become is your gift to God.

643

:

Oh, I'm sorry.

644

:

Did I say it was a scripture?

645

:

Sorry.

646

:

It's a quote.

647

:

So we'll stop there.

648

:

Marcel: Thank you, Robert.

649

:

Our next episode will be part

four titled spiritual discernment.

650

:

Thanks for listening to deeper

dive by the OC church of Christ.

651

:

If you want to get connected to us or

want to donate to the program, go to

652

:

our website, OCChurchofchrist.com or

through social media @TheOCchurch join

653

:

us next time for part four of the journey.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Deeper Dive
Deeper Dive
In-depth Bible Study from the OC Church of Christ

Listen for free